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Player speed question

By Mcbolt55
10/19/2022 8:56 am
I know this has been discussed in the past, but in light of the recent removal of flat zone (and fb dive) in hopes of opening up offenses again, I wonder if things have changed. My confusion stems from 2 seemingly contradicting complaints. 1 is that outside wr’s (that are coded small and fast) can’t outrun DE’s that are engaged with OL and still collapse the pocket to the qb before the route opens up to throw. The contradicting complaint is that playing undersized at “big” positions, like a wr at TE/FB, defensive backs on punt block, etc get such a speed mismatch that many leagues set rules to eliminate “broken cheats”. How exactly do both these things happen? I also know that a big kick returner with high ball carry and break tackle is more likely to spring for a td even with 50 or 60 speed instead of one with 90 and 99 kick return. Others have pointed out that any TE at the 257 lbs will never outrun his coverage LB (at 240lbs) even with a massive advantage in speed rating? But slot a little wr in their and bust a big play every time? Does weight matter that much more than the actual speed/accel ratings? And if so, why does the pass rush beat the route running?

Re: Player speed question

By setherick
10/19/2022 9:00 am
Slow kick returners and punt returners do better because they don't outrun blocks. And run blocking is super stronk swole on steroids.

Slow, heavy players like TEs don't do well in the passing game because they can't accelerate at 257# against a 237# WLB to separate to make catches.

Break Tackle is modified by a player's Speed, so faster players actually perform better than slow players at breaking tackles.

What weight and strength do is allow players to push the pile.

Other thoughts on speed here: https://nfl.myfootballnow.com/forums/4/1763?page=1#8112
Last edited at 10/19/2022 9:02 am

Re: Player speed question

By Mcbolt55
10/19/2022 10:48 am
Is all this still true with the supposed “zero speed” update?

Re: Player speed question

By setherick
10/19/2022 11:05 am
Based on that update

Re: Player speed question

By raymattison21
10/20/2022 9:42 am
Mcbolt55 wrote:
I know this has been discussed in the past, but in light of the recent removal of flat zone (and fb dive) in hopes of opening up offenses again, I wonder if things have changed.

Simply said no nothing code wise but according to Seths stats there will be less sacks and incompletions. Probably less interceptions

My confusion stems from 2 seemingly contradicting complaints. 1 is that outside wr’s (that are coded small and fast) can’t outrun DE’s that are engaged with OL and still collapse the pocket to the qb before the route opens up to throw.

Most theories have the Bump and run rating to blame, or it is overpowered especially compared to how quickly a DE gets to the qb.

See, the dbs and receivers fight for position throughout the route. The refs don’t always see the potential flags and the timing for the QB is jaded towards a “qb” being under pressure too often… even though “hurries” here doesn’t represent measures as high, but qb efficiency ratings indicates something is low there just like an NFL QB being under a lot of pressure but In particular from very tight coverage . Sacks taking over 3-5 seconds


The contradicting complaint is that playing undersized at “big” positions, like a wr at TE/FB, defensive backs on punt block, etc get such a speed mismatch that many leagues set rules to eliminate “broken cheats”. How exactly do both these things happen?

actual speed is heavily tied to size and Is not represented by the display numbers on the card relative to other sizes of players. Yes at 198 pounds this guy is as fast as that guy as long as thier workloads and speed/acceleration are similar. Even with the same speed and acceleration numbers players ranging 50 pounds different drastically changes a players 40 yard dash.

The punt block exploits was recently nerfed with with an additional tweaks to calculation(at the line of scrimmage) out side of the independent actions of the players, presnap alignments, and skills. This has to due with a player size on size matchup and simply said the smaller you are the harder it is to get around a bigger player.

As the punt block exploit is still all through out the game in the pass rushing scenarios. Small guys are still to good at this but again stemming from the same thing making 40 times off. Think about it before anything was changed you could never block a punt when they were pinned down in there own end zone. Even with a non punter!

What caused it ? Was the pursuit angles where different due to the punter having to line up shallower presnap. There are different presnap alignments for qbs and guys assigned to blitz on pass plays. Along with the punt block fix pass blitz pickups were also refined and effect the the current passing game.

I also know that a big kick returner with high ball carry and break tackle is more likely to spring for a td even with 50 or 60 speed instead of one with 90 and 99 kick return.

[b]simply said kick catching is only used in PR scenarios.

Getting deeper, zero speed was raised making slower players faster in comparison. Faster means more break tackles. And with run blocks lack of engagement /disengagement/ engagement style blocks the act of a “stalk” just block is not here.

The whole act of movement within an engaged block is sparsely representative in comparison to the nfl so only here to exploit. During the FB dive this static line play is like a mini KR scenario….a guaranteed 3-4 yards (fb dive) or 30-40 yards on a KR. Same same.
[/b]

Others have pointed out that any TE at the 257 lbs will never outrun his coverage LB (at 240lbs) even with a massive advantage in speed rating?

in the old days speed and acceleration were represented the same way strength is now, on a scale of a 100 but it’s the players weight that would make the difference. Currently speed is calculated based off the players weight but what you see on the card is not relative like a possible MPH measure only to compare outside of one particular weight

But slot a little wr in their and bust a big play every time?

yes pending the players weight, bump and run, play calls match ups….. a lot factors but a LB on a wr is risky.

Does weight matter that much more than the actual speed/accel ratings?

a lot of great vets swear on weight to get that push in run blocking. Weight is also a factor in the “bull rush” and same for breaking tackles. Weight benefits other area but hurts speed.

Our guys run 4.7 second 40 yard dashes….ranging to probably 9. The nfl rarely has players above 6 seconds so what we do is make players speed fit. Imo being in the top 85% of the speed scale per weight range will get you a lot closer to relative speed to the nfl.

Raising zero speed closes the gaps in weight differences some but the cause is there and exploitable. Much better today than 7 years ago. But again i will suggest using body mass index instead of weight as that would smash the scale even more but in a different sense.


And if so, why does the pass rush beat the route running?

back to how actual speeds were made closer , the slower were made faster, no matter weight. and in general man to man code is light years ahead of other parts of code. Or simply said the value of bump is too high now cause of more recent changes.

Years ago in mfn1, testing B&R passing , I had a RB who also plays FB, TE and in the slot on 4wr sets … he had everything but bump like 18. Once this switch was made he fell off the map in terms of production. In the game veiwer without even a defender near him he would just stand there and kind of wiggle. Bump was turned down a bit but think of it as an invisible effect. It’s there slowing all the receivers every play.

But again I hate to hung up on any one thing. There’s other reasons passing is tough. Remember all of 4.5 had 10% of the passing game just not there. And I am referring to the part involving runs etc…..essentially anything besides a pass happening under three second. It’s almost part of the cause of the bug of long passes being useless now.

In theory if you loosen up coverage the qb will find the open guy. Or not enough QBs are finding enough open guys after 3 seconds..

Not to mention worthless zone plays and how off ball defenders react when the ball is in the air.
There’s a bright side to these as a shelved code has some fixes already in those areas and QBs could throw for a lot more yards. But I have some other tests under way now to some other well know exploits


Re: Player speed question

By Mcbolt55
10/20/2022 10:02 am
Thank you for the extensive item by item reply. These questions have been building on me obviously, and I just kind of blurted them all out at once. It really seemed like two major complaints were completely contradicting each other, but as I understand now, acceleration has a lot more to with it (and b&r)

Re: Player speed question

By setherick
10/20/2022 10:05 am
B&R is absolutely the reason that WRs move slowly. B&R rolls apply all the way down field. In 4.4 testing, WRs would eventually break free of slow CBs but that was taken away and the catch nerf added.

Because long passes are impossible I've just started playing whatever speed CBs I can find with 100 B&R and 100 M2M since everyone cuts these players when they get to 60 speed. More dominance for me.
Last edited at 10/20/2022 10:13 am

Re: Player speed question

By Lemon97
10/20/2022 10:22 am
setherick wrote:
B&R is absolutely the reason that WRs move slowly. B&R rolls apply all the way down field. In 4.4 testing, WRs would eventually break free of slow CBs but that was taken away and the catch nerf added.

Because long passes are impossible I've just started playing whatever speed CBs I can find with 100 B&R and 100 M2M since everyone cuts these players when they get to 60 speed. More dominance for me.


But if there's a big play, fast CB can catch receiver and prevent TD

Re: Player speed question

By setherick
10/20/2022 12:48 pm
Lemon97 wrote:
setherick wrote:
B&R is absolutely the reason that WRs move slowly. B&R rolls apply all the way down field. In 4.4 testing, WRs would eventually break free of slow CBs but that was taken away and the catch nerf added.

Because long passes are impossible I've just started playing whatever speed CBs I can find with 100 B&R and 100 M2M since everyone cuts these players when they get to 60 speed. More dominance for me.


But if there's a big play, fast CB can catch receiver and prevent TD


Some of the time. But that's why you have fast safeties and play cover 1 or cover 2. ;)