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Re: Allow receiving teams to take possession of illegal onside kicks

By punisher
6/23/2019 7:25 pm
Kababmaster wrote:

The NFL also has a weird rule on a Fair Catch where by they can get 3 points from an immediate FC and opt for a FG type scenario. Last person to do this I think was Doug Flutie @ Buffalo......it's on youtube somewhere.


you mean this as the Fair Catch = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRbxIOZxV_M

might have been Raul Allegre most recently

Re: Allow receiving teams to take possession of illegal onside kicks

By jlyman
6/23/2019 7:27 pm
"A safety kick puts the ball in play after a safety. A dropkick, placekick, or punt may be used for a safety kick. A tee cannot be used for a safety kick."

From https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2018-nfl-rulebook/#rule-6.-free-kicks

I think we're quibbling over the use of the word "punt." As I see it, a free kick is one in which the opponent is not trying to block it. The technique used to kick the ball will vary.

Re: Allow receiving teams to take possession of illegal onside kicks

By CrazyRazor
6/23/2019 7:30 pm
I'm aware of that rule. (3 points)

I'm fairly certain slowtospeak is mainly concerned with onside kicks going out of bounds before being touched by the receiving team and/or onside kicks being recovered by the kicking team before the ball travels 10 yards. ( I'd be willing to bet that the receiving team actually touches the ball in this scenario, contrary to the fact that it doesn't show up in the game logs)
Last edited at 6/23/2019 7:31 pm

Re: Allow receiving teams to take possession of illegal onside kicks

By Kababmaster
6/23/2019 7:33 pm
jlyman wrote:
"A safety kick puts the ball in play after a safety. A dropkick, placekick, or punt may be used for a safety kick. A tee cannot be used for a safety kick."

From https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2018-nfl-rulebook/#rule-6.-free-kicks

I think we're quibbling over the use of the word "punt." As I see it, a free kick is one in which the opponent is not trying to block it. The technique used to kick the ball will vary.


No, the formation is still that of a Free Kick....no matter what way you draw it up, and furthermore, Free Kick Rules still apply. A Punt is a scrimmage play and have a ton of other rules of application, not to mention 4th Down rulings.

Personally, I'm not confused by this difference between A "scrimmage kick" vs a "free kick"....rules apply to both..

Re: Allow receiving teams to take possession of illegal onside kicks

By jlyman
6/23/2019 7:38 pm
Kababmaster wrote:
jlyman wrote:
"A safety kick puts the ball in play after a safety. A dropkick, placekick, or punt may be used for a safety kick. A tee cannot be used for a safety kick."

From https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2018-nfl-rulebook/#rule-6.-free-kicks

I think we're quibbling over the use of the word "punt." As I see it, a free kick is one in which the opponent is not trying to block it. The technique used to kick the ball will vary.


No, the formation is still that of a Free Kick....no matter what way you draw it up, and furthermore, Free Kick Rules still apply. A Punt is a scrimmage play and have a ton of other rules of application, not to mention 4th Down rulings.

Personally, I'm not confused by this difference between A "scrimmage kick" vs a "free kick"....rules apply to both..


Not to be a ****, but...

A Kick is intentionally striking the ball with the knee, lower leg, or foot. A kick ends when a player of either team possesses the ball, or when the ball is dead.

Item 1. Drop Kick. A Drop Kick is a kick by a player who drops the ball and kicks it as, or immediately after, it touches the ground.

Item 2. Placekick. A Placekick is a kick made by a player while the ball is in a fixed position on the ground. The ball may be held in position by a teammate. If it is a kickoff, it is permissible to use an approved manufactured tee.

Item 3. Punt. A Punt is a kick made by a player who drops the ball and kicks it before it strikes the ground.

Re: Allow receiving teams to take possession of illegal onside kicks

By Kababmaster
6/23/2019 7:49 pm
jlyman wrote:
Kababmaster wrote:
jlyman wrote:
"A safety kick puts the ball in play after a safety. A dropkick, placekick, or punt may be used for a safety kick. A tee cannot be used for a safety kick."

From https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2018-nfl-rulebook/#rule-6.-free-kicks

I think we're quibbling over the use of the word "punt." As I see it, a free kick is one in which the opponent is not trying to block it. The technique used to kick the ball will vary.


No, the formation is still that of a Free Kick....no matter what way you draw it up, and furthermore, Free Kick Rules still apply. A Punt is a scrimmage play and have a ton of other rules of application, not to mention 4th Down rulings.

Personally, I'm not confused by this difference between A "scrimmage kick" vs a "free kick"....rules apply to both..


Not to be a ****, but...

A Kick is intentionally striking the ball with the knee, lower leg, or foot. A kick ends when a player of either team possesses the ball, or when the ball is dead.

Item 1. Drop Kick. A Drop Kick is a kick by a player who drops the ball and kicks it as, or immediately after, it touches the ground.

Item 2. Placekick. A Placekick is a kick made by a player while the ball is in a fixed position on the ground. The ball may be held in position by a teammate. If it is a kickoff, it is permissible to use an approved manufactured tee.

Item 3. Punt. A Punt is a kick made by a player who drops the ball and kicks it before it strikes the ground.


Your first point must be an NFL ruling I have no clue on....as an unintentional kick or batting below the waste can lead to IIB (illegal batting).

No issue with Item 1, but there are circumstances where this is NOT allowed in NFL or NCAA. My NFL understanding is that this can only occur from a FC from a scrimmage kick (Punt).

Item 2. Placekick Otherwise known since the beginning of football as a scrimmage kick....and largely still is. What parameters are needed for the ball to be in play prior to loss of protection for the kicker ? (Think Formation)

Item 3. Punt. Otherwise known as a scrimmage formation What parameters are needed for the ball to be in play prior to loss of protection for the punter? (Think Formation)




Re: Allow receiving teams to take possession of illegal onside kicks

By jlyman
6/23/2019 8:06 pm
All I'm trying to say is that the word punt means "to kick with the top of the foot before whatever is being kicked hits the ground."

Re: Allow receiving teams to take possession of illegal onside kicks

By CrazyRazor
6/23/2019 8:11 pm
Kababmaster, a safety kick (free kick) can be punted. That is what we are saying. The formation that the ball is kicked is still the formation of a free kick. Do you understand that?
A scrimmage kick is always punted (from my understanding). I haven't checked the rules.

Re: Allow receiving teams to take possession of illegal onside kicks

By CrazyRazor
6/23/2019 8:14 pm
A free kick to open the game or the 2nd half is place kicked (from a tee). Again, I have not checked the rules. I don't believe opening free kicks (to open the game or 2nd half) can be punted.
Last edited at 6/23/2019 8:15 pm

Re: Allow receiving teams to take possession of illegal onside kicks

By Kababmaster
6/23/2019 8:16 pm
CrazyRazor wrote:
Kababmaster, a safety kick (free kick) can be punted. That is what we are saying. The formation that the ball is kicked is still the formation of a free kick. Do you understand that?
A scrimmage kick is always punted (from my understanding). I haven't checked the rules.


Of course it can...I've never disputed that Crazy ! My posts on here are to correct a "wrong of enforcement" on an onsides kick....and then we went down some sort of rabbit hole where I knew I was comfortable with.

I hope I did not come across as a ****, but you'd be VERY surprised with the amount of Americans that do not know the rules of their own game....and that is not a dig at Americans, just something I've noticed.

****, if I had my way, there would be more penalties and less injuries in this game :)