I'm starting a thread about this because the consensus seems to be that it's broken. Here's what JDB has said about B&R:



And this is a breakdown of what I'm seeing in games:

1) CBs play B&R a lot of the time. The reason is because most of the best players play M2M defenses because zone is too easily exploitable. And most M2M plays have the CBs play up on the WR. This causes them to come up into B&R more than JDB thinks in the quote above.

2) I see more slow CBs and CBs with bad B&R come up to the line than what JDB also thinks above.

3) Bad B&R is a worse detriment to a CB than bad B&R Avoidance is a detriment to a WR. Even when a CB makes a good jam at the line, the WR accelerates up to full speed as soon as the jam is over and the CB takes too long to recover. This basically means that every B&R play gives an advantage to the WR.

These are just general observations right now. I'll get examples around eventually.

And this is a plausible explanation for all of it based on the quote above:

1) Bad B&R players fail their decision roll more of then not and try to B&R every player.

2) Slower CBs especially fail the roll when facing faster WRs.

3) Most CBs and DBs in general are generated with bad B&R, which means more failed dice rolls, which means more opportunities to get burned.

Here's the best example I've seen for why I think B&R is currently busted, but it also contains possible keys to how to fix it: https://beta87.myfootballnow.com/watch/963#176680

Quick analysis: bad jam at the LOS leads to the DB getting burned by a faster WR.

Here's why I think this is happening knowing what I know about B&R:

1) DB is in tight coverage, so the B&R dice roll comes into play.
2) The WR is faster than the DB, which means that the B&R dice roll is more likely to happen.
3) The DB has a low B&R skill, so he fails that dice roll and chooses to go to B&R even though his B&R skill is terrible.

This is obviously the wrong decision.

The CB has 90+ M2M and 90+ INT. What I would expect in this play is that the CB gives the WR a 5 to 7 yard cushion, and then plays in the WRs pocket down the field, so the WR can't use his speed to his advantage. I assume that's what the Route vs M2M stutter addition is all about.

What this suggests to me is that the easiest way to fix B&R is to have the decision to move up into B&R based on the DB's INT rating and not the B&R skill. Higher INT will allow DBs to "know" that they **** at B&R and will get burned by WRs with better SP and better B&R.

Random observation: Why the **** are DE and DTs generated with B&R, but not LBs?

By raymattison21
7/10/2017 2:00 pm
What is the logic behind bump and run? I see and understand it for CBs playin it during the blitz play as working as such. They choose whether or to bump depending on the speed match up they face, but what about other positions? In particular SS, FS, and OLB while playing man coverage .

Also, I am probably looking in to this too deep, but does it has an effect for the match up of the DE that lines head up on the TE? Do they and possibly the OLB in the 3-4 ever "chuck" the TE to throw off the QBs timing by preventing an easy "release " in to his pattern ?

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Re: Bump and run......
By jdavidbakr - Site Admin
7/10/2017 5:00 pm

Anyone in man coverage has a probability of doing a bump and run.

Liked by raymattison21

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Re: Bump and run......
By Ares
7/10/2017 5:30 pm
If that's true of LBs too they should gen with B&R coverage (and improve it if their potential is trending upwards

This is as far as I got on that one.....I just draft dline and move them to LB.

LBs have b and R potential this new draft.

I noticed that. It's across leagues as well. Not just beta. Paydirt has LBs generated with B&R.

I've been watching B&R coverage in 0.4.3, and it's horribly broken. As in, it's broken worse than before. Bad B&R players, and by that I mean AVERAGE IN THEIR ATTRIBUTE (50-75), are getting destroyed on the line by WRs that are not much better than them. Combine this with stutter and 100 Route / 100 B&R players are just going to humiliate teams.

This, and the fact that DBs CONTINUE TO STOP COVERING, are probably why coverage on long passes was so completely and utterly broken.

What happened with B&R? Bad to average B&R players were not engaging in B&R for the longest time, and by that, I mean up to April 1.

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The fact that B&R is not a controllable play time, and is left up to the game to decide, is just stupid period.

Also this: https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/community/1/4657?page=3&x=IzO1KHcHhi#29056

Oh boy if this is supposedly bad B & R coverage then we're all in trouble. (re: passing game)

I'll take your word on the fact that B & R isn't operating like it was intended to, however, passing has definitely been stymied in other ways.

QB decision behavior to toss to short lengthed routes; typically running backs flaring out for dump offs. QB decision making to avoid the hot routes (streaks, big hitters) for the after thought routes in a play. (4th and 5th level routes of the past) Dropped passes; slowed up catches to minimize the gain of the reception. Version 4.3 vs. Version 4.2 definitely features a much different passing game. If CBs start locking down Revis Island style at the line of scrimmage in addition......

Uh oh.

I think the QB nerfs should be removed and the actual coverage problems should be fixed. If it wasn't for all the QB nerfs right now, QBs would be destroying defenses because coverage is still really bad.