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Comeback Logic Brainstorm

By jdavidbakr - Site Admin
1/15/2015 8:42 am
Hey guys,

I need some help brainstorming about the comeback logic. Feel free to throw in your two cents on this thread, this is an issue I'd like to solve as I do feel like it frequently breaks the realism.

The onside kick recovery rate, when simmed long term, is a little less than 20% successful which matches the NFL stats. The offense, however, has a tendency to turn into a powerhouse on those two-minute drills. A lot of guys have said that they think there is some comeback logic that exists in the engine that gives the offense an advantage in these situations, and I can see why one would think that, but the only thing that changes is that the offense stops running and goes to 100% passing. (BTW, the QB does fatigue the more he passes, and the more he passes the less accurate he becomes, which is why going with a 100% passing game _shouldn't_ give you this kind of an offense for a whole game)

When I look at the long pass plays often times it is because the deep safety misses the tackle, or the WR seems to get past the deep safety. I need to probably dig further (and this is one area I would love your help) to see what kind of defenses are giving up these big plays, because here are some thoughts I have to try to solve it:

* Right now the defense is not aware that the offense is in hurry-up. One of my ideas is to automatically turn the defense to a pass key defense if the offense is in hurry-up. The pass key will cause the DB's to play a little deeper as well as give a slight advantage to the pass rushers. You can see whether a play had a run or pass key in the game logs, that's one stat I'd find interesting is how many of these big pass plays in hurry-up were against pass keys.

* A larger scale idea is to have a defensive option to switch to a prevent defense in the same manner that you can set your hurry-up/slow down offense. A prevent defense would basically be everyone playing a deep zone.

Any other ideas or comments are certainly welcome. Thanks again for your help!

Re: Comeback Logic Brainstorm

By jdavidbakr - Site Admin
1/15/2015 8:42 am
BTW, this thread is not limited to MFN-1 players, I invite anyone to give feedback here. Thanks!

Re: Comeback Logic Brainstorm

By Morbid
1/15/2015 9:01 am
One thing I have noticed when Offense does go into a hurry up is player personal changes and would think that would eat up more clock if time hasnt stopped.

Overall I think coverages are weak one on one even if you have a stud DB. I am finding it more important to have a speedy DB more then one who is better at zone or m2m coverages.

I also dont know how it works as far as play familiarity in game compared to what your teams general familiarity is. Sometimes you can see the same play beating you over and over with no adjustments being made.

As far as specific plays I will have to pay more attention and post up what I see in the future.

Re: Comeback Logic Brainstorm

By Wolfpack
1/15/2015 10:34 am
Onside Kicks: I think you want to be very careful with onside kick numbers…you should error on the side of caution there, which is what it sounds like you are doing.

Comeback:
-I like the idea of going into a prevent mode in term of personal. I want to send out my dime (or what ever) package no matter what the offense trouts out until they get to first and goal or something. I would not necessarily want all deep zone however, give us a few choices like a 3 deep with man under, a qb spy with zone behind, 4 deep zone and a double slot corner blitz.
-Going to a pass key makes sense.
-Also consider giving the pass rushing DL a bonus as they are not checking for a run, just shooting gaps or edges and getting to the QB.
-I also agree with the idea of using the same play over and over should give the defense an increased shot at knowing what is coming. I think that applies across the board actually, we saw a lot of that last season with running that strong sweep to death.
-I have personally noticed that a lot of comebacks are because the defenses brings a blitz and then gets burnt. I think that is working fine, its a huge risk to bring a 6 man rush and if you don't get home, you are toast.
-The increased break tackle is a hair too high still I think, it shows up a lot in the passing game and that might want to be toned down just a little bit more or figured out a how the WRs are breaking the same amount of tackles as a RB.

Re: Comeback Logic Brainstorm

By Davesgang
1/16/2015 4:59 am
7000+ yard passers is a problem. I believe medium passes are overpowered? Check with DetroitLeo.

Increase sacks and the effect of hurries.
Especially if a defense is going all-out pass rush. Pass tips at the line need to happen once in a while.

The "strong sweep of death" is a great example of how the engine needs to adapt to extreme game plans. I've played against teams that only have called a few run plays all game. Defense should be able to call plays and adapt them to any personnel package.

I've played against teams that only have 2 running plays in the playbook, and run them successfully over and over. If I'm calling out "stop the sweep death!" for the tenth time my defense should start to catch on.

I agree that the break tackles is a touch to high for rb and te. However it's way to high for qbs and wr.
Last edited at 1/16/2015 5:50 am

Re: Comeback Logic Brainstorm

By RLWJR
1/16/2015 2:05 pm
I see pass tips at the line a LOT.

Re: Comeback Logic Brainstorm

By Morbid
1/16/2015 4:20 pm
RLWJR wrote:
I see pass tips at the line a LOT.


Same here. I would actually like to see that decreased. I would also like to see the passes that go cross field down the line of scrimmage when a QB is chased from the pocket as I see lots of INT on those to where the QB should just be throwing it out of bounds.

Re: Comeback Logic Brainstorm

By jgcruz
1/17/2015 2:19 pm
I think the following factors should come into play with regard to the playing defense against the hurry up offense, in order of priority:

Time left in game
Score, i.e., points ahead (or tied)
Field position
Down
Distance to go for first down

For example, if the offensive team is more than a touchdown behind and there is relatively little time left in the game, then it makes perfect sense to retreat tho a deep zone with 6 or 7 defenders and give up short to medium yardage.

On the other extreme, it makes less sense to deploy such a defense if the offensive team is a down less than 3 points and there is enough time left to move into field goal range by moving a few yards at a time. In that case, the defense would likely focus on keeping the offensive team in bounds to shorten the game rather than give up the bomb (although the DBs would be under strict orders not to let anyone get behind them).

Therefore, the game's logic should start at 100% deep/6-7 DBs where a quick score is likely to be the only objective/need of the offense, and then start to taper off depending on the other relevant factors. Examples:

    Example 1

1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th down
Short, Medium or Long yardage
Ball on own 25 yd line to opponents 0
Defensive team ahead by more than 7 points
3 minutes or less to play
Then, 100% deep/6-7 DBs. (Inside the 25 might be played a bit differently.)

    Example 2

3rd down
Short yardage
Ball on own 25 yd line to own 0
Defensive team ahead by less than 3 points
Less than 3 minutes to play
Then, anything but 100% deep/6-7 DBs. (Probably 100% short yardage defense because the defense wants a stop to get the ball back if a FG is made that puts the offensive team ahead.)

    Example 3

1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th down
Short, Medium or Long yardage
Ball on opponents 0 to 50 yard line
Defensive team ahead by any score
30 seconds or less to play
Then, 100% deep/6-7 DBs

My point is that there is a time where as the game winds down when playing 100% deep/6-7 DBs is always the smart play on defense. But clearly not always. Thus, IMO the game logarithm should make adjustments based on the factors I mentioned above, if not more.
Last edited at 1/17/2015 2:21 pm

Re: Comeback Logic Brainstorm

By WarEagle
1/17/2015 6:59 pm
I don't see what the issue is regarding this.

According to JDB, there is no "comback logic". A team is no less likely to complete a pass or break a tackle at the end of the game than they are during any other time. The only difference is that some teams go into a hurry up offense and pass at a much higher percentage than otherwise.

At least, that is my understanding. Anyone please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Using gameplan rules, I can set what type of defenses I want to be in based on time left, point differential, field position, etc.

Anyway, I say all this to say that I don't think there is anything that needs changing regarding "comebacks". If I'm allowing too many comebacks, I need a better gameplan, better players, or most likely both.

Re: Comeback Logic Brainstorm

By RLWJR
1/18/2015 3:56 am
What WarEagle said.......
Last edited at 1/18/2015 3:56 am