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Main - General MFN Discussion

Re: May 2024 Update

By Pernbronze
5/28/2024 2:12 pm
Cjfred68 wrote:
Pernbronze wrote:


It makes sense to me. Most college players never even sniff an NFL team. Most that make an NFL team are never even considered good. MFN actually seems to be pretty balanced with how many stars and good players there are at any given position. If anything there are too many good ones. That said it becomes moot when most of the top teams are filled with sim exploit players with bad overalls.


That's not really my point, I can give you a decent list of undrafted players who made the HOF and Tom Brady is the ultimate example of a player drafted in the 6th round to end up the Goat and a 1st ballot HOFer.

Many players drafted in the 1st become big bust and the game gets that right but with high vol players drafted in the 5th, 6th, 7th or even signed as undrafted there should be an occasional +30 boom. They are plenty of -20+ busts every single draft so why not throw a few +20 booms in as well.

I'm not asking for a 1 to 1 ratio, even a 100 to 1 ratio is better then exists right now because what's the biggest boom everyone has ever seen for a rookie?

+15 to +17 I've seen happen but its super rare.

I love the entire structure of the draft and TC is still a fun spin to anticipate but the reality is you end up hoping for a -1/0/+1 for you 1st and 2nd rounders and jump for joy if you get a +4.

I just think the draft would be alot more interesting if a few BIG BOOMs happened for those 60 and under potential players taken in the later rounds. After hundreds of drafts in MFN, it's become fairly predictable and alot of owners see absolutely no value in 5th, 6th and 7th rounders unless you need a kicker, kick holder or long snapper.

"Every year, between 15 and 20 undrafted free agents make NFL rosters every year. This year should be no different, as there are more than a few players picked after the draft who have a chance, if not an inside track, towards making a 53-man roster and making an impact in their rookie season."

May 8 2024

NFLs ALLTIME UNDRAFTED TEAM

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.nfl.com/photos/nfl-s-all-time-undrafted-team-0ap3000000567319&ved=2ahUKEwiC3vvi_7CGAxUkK1kFHSrECBIQFnoECBoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw19-8BxIygYdsPW8ggPlPML


I've seen lots of late picks end up booming 20+ over their career. Yes the busts are bigger and more common in the first training camp but that's accurate too because it's far easier and quicker to tell when a player doesn't meet expectations than to see how high his potential can take him past expectations.

I get tons of value in the 5th 6th and 7th rounds. A lot of starters too. There's even the occasional undrafted player that is good though my teams are rarely in need to where I reach that low. I regularly see 10 or so players go undrafted that should easily be on a roster.
Last edited at 5/28/2024 2:17 pm

Re: May 2024 Update

By Cjfred68
5/28/2024 2:42 pm
Congratulations!!!

Must be nice!

I guess I don't know what I'm talking about then and nothing needs changing.

Re: May 2024 Update

By Mcbolt55
5/28/2024 3:19 pm
Isn’t there something in the program about last day picks getting a progression bonus? A booming 5-7 round pick might make the talent of that player go from a preseason cut to solid depth player or eventual starter, I know I’ve had a few, but they are certainly rare. I feel like I’ve seen more 5-7 picks be productive players than 4th rounders, but maybe that’s my limited perspective/luck. All goes back to the default player weights/ratings not matching what truly makes a successful sim player. The “dice” are loaded, the overall variance on what kinds of players are generated at each position practically begs half of them to change position or be completely worthless at what they are assigned.

Re: May 2024 Update

By Cjfred68
5/28/2024 4:21 pm
The crux of the problem is any player on offense or defense that touches the ball or is attempting to touch the ball needs at the bare minimum 70 speed.

So when you are playing in a full league with experienced owners by the time you reach round 4....any player with the necessary speed or obtainable speed through position change are gone.

People complain about exploit ball which essentially means using fast players so the simple solution that requires no change to the Sim engine is to create a floor for speed for all players.

50 speed DBs and WRs wouldn't even be invited to an NFL combine so why are they created in the draft class which is significantly smaller then the pool of draft eligible players available in the NFL. Sure slow WRs & DBs exist all through college and they never make anyone's draft board so the Sim should create each draft class with those players automatically eliminated.

This has multiple benefits including making other skills much more valuable and limiting the need to switch so many players to different positions just to gain speed.

That's my opinion.

Re: May 2024 Update

By Pernbronze
5/28/2024 6:43 pm
Cjfred68 wrote:
The crux of the problem is any player on offense or defense that touches the ball or is attempting to touch the ball needs at the bare minimum 70 speed.

So when you are playing in a full league with experienced owners by the time you reach round 4....any player with the necessary speed or obtainable speed through position change are gone.

People complain about exploit ball which essentially means using fast players so the simple solution that requires no change to the Sim engine is to create a floor for speed for all players.

50 speed DBs and WRs wouldn't even be invited to an NFL combine so why are they created in the draft class which is significantly smaller then the pool of draft eligible players available in the NFL. Sure slow WRs & DBs exist all through college and they never make anyone's draft board so the Sim should create each draft class with those players automatically eliminated.

This has multiple benefits including making other skills much more valuable and limiting the need to switch so many players to different positions just to gain speed.

That's my opinion.


While a speed cap would help I'd like to see it be the balance of relevant skills. So like if your wr is currently an exploit player with 95 speed but 20 route running then he'd only be running at the speed of a 58 roughly while he's running his routes. Then do the same with catching to determine how fast he can catch and accelerate and then speed and ball carrying after the catch. Factor the other attributes in as play speed. It'd mean 70 speed players with 100 route running would be running like an 85 speed. This is consistent with players that play faster than their 40 time. This I think would be the easiest way to slow down exploit ball.

Re: May 2024 Update

By Waitwut
5/28/2024 7:55 pm
Pernbronze wrote:
Cjfred68 wrote:
The crux of the problem is any player on offense or defense that touches the ball or is attempting to touch the ball needs at the bare minimum 70 speed.

So when you are playing in a full league with experienced owners by the time you reach round 4....any player with the necessary speed or obtainable speed through position change are gone.

People complain about exploit ball which essentially means using fast players so the simple solution that requires no change to the Sim engine is to create a floor for speed for all players.

50 speed DBs and WRs wouldn't even be invited to an NFL combine so why are they created in the draft class which is significantly smaller then the pool of draft eligible players available in the NFL. Sure slow WRs & DBs exist all through college and they never make anyone's draft board so the Sim should create each draft class with those players automatically eliminated.

This has multiple benefits including making other skills much more valuable and limiting the need to switch so many players to different positions just to gain speed.

That's my opinion.


While a speed cap would help I'd like to see it be the balance of relevant skills. So like if your wr is currently an exploit player with 95 speed but 20 route running then he'd only be running at the speed of a 58 roughly while he's running his routes. Then do the same with catching to determine how fast he can catch and accelerate and then speed and ball carrying after the catch. Factor the other attributes in as play speed. It'd mean 70 speed players with 100 route running would be running like an 85 speed. This is consistent with players that play faster than their 40 time. This I think would be the easiest way to slow down exploit ball.


I’d rather see the talent on the board than complicate matters by rolling out whatever formula this would require. It is extremely punitive given owners have no control over the talent they roster based on the skills the generator provides.

Why does it seem like RO players want to punish everyone while non RO players seemingly just want the game to actually be better.

Re: May 2024 Update

By Pernbronze
5/28/2024 8:12 pm
Waitwut wrote:
Pernbronze wrote:
Cjfred68 wrote:
The crux of the problem is any player on offense or defense that touches the ball or is attempting to touch the ball needs at the bare minimum 70 speed.

So when you are playing in a full league with experienced owners by the time you reach round 4....any player with the necessary speed or obtainable speed through position change are gone.

People complain about exploit ball which essentially means using fast players so the simple solution that requires no change to the Sim engine is to create a floor for speed for all players.

50 speed DBs and WRs wouldn't even be invited to an NFL combine so why are they created in the draft class which is significantly smaller then the pool of draft eligible players available in the NFL. Sure slow WRs & DBs exist all through college and they never make anyone's draft board so the Sim should create each draft class with those players automatically eliminated.

This has multiple benefits including making other skills much more valuable and limiting the need to switch so many players to different positions just to gain speed.

That's my opinion.


While a speed cap would help I'd like to see it be the balance of relevant skills. So like if your wr is currently an exploit player with 95 speed but 20 route running then he'd only be running at the speed of a 58 roughly while he's running his routes. Then do the same with catching to determine how fast he can catch and accelerate and then speed and ball carrying after the catch. Factor the other attributes in as play speed. It'd mean 70 speed players with 100 route running would be running like an 85 speed. This is consistent with players that play faster than their 40 time. This I think would be the easiest way to slow down exploit ball.


I’d rather see the talent on the board than complicate matters by rolling out whatever formula this would require. It is extremely punitive given owners have no control over the talent they roster based on the skills the generator provides.

Why does it seem like RO players want to punish everyone while non RO players seemingly just want the game to actually be better.


How is it bad to make the skills other than speed matter? How is it punishing besides you can't just speed exploit everything? There's tons of players with skills other than speed. And your RO hate is just plain weird.

Re: May 2024 Update

By Waitwut
5/29/2024 5:53 am
Pernbronze wrote:
Waitwut wrote:
Pernbronze wrote:
Cjfred68 wrote:
The crux of the problem is any player on offense or defense that touches the ball or is attempting to touch the ball needs at the bare minimum 70 speed.

So when you are playing in a full league with experienced owners by the time you reach round 4....any player with the necessary speed or obtainable speed through position change are gone.

People complain about exploit ball which essentially means using fast players so the simple solution that requires no change to the Sim engine is to create a floor for speed for all players.

50 speed DBs and WRs wouldn't even be invited to an NFL combine so why are they created in the draft class which is significantly smaller then the pool of draft eligible players available in the NFL. Sure slow WRs & DBs exist all through college and they never make anyone's draft board so the Sim should create each draft class with those players automatically eliminated.

This has multiple benefits including making other skills much more valuable and limiting the need to switch so many players to different positions just to gain speed.

That's my opinion.


While a speed cap would help I'd like to see it be the balance of relevant skills. So like if your wr is currently an exploit player with 95 speed but 20 route running then he'd only be running at the speed of a 58 roughly while he's running his routes. Then do the same with catching to determine how fast he can catch and accelerate and then speed and ball carrying after the catch. Factor the other attributes in as play speed. It'd mean 70 speed players with 100 route running would be running like an 85 speed. This is consistent with players that play faster than their 40 time. This I think would be the easiest way to slow down exploit ball.


I’d rather see the talent on the board than complicate matters by rolling out whatever formula this would require. It is extremely punitive given owners have no control over the talent they roster based on the skills the generator provides.

Why does it seem like RO players want to punish everyone while non RO players seemingly just want the game to actually be better.


How is it bad to make the skills other than speed matter? How is it punishing besides you can't just speed exploit everything? There's tons of players with skills other than speed. And your RO hate is just plain weird.


No one has said other skills should not matter. I think where some ideas are about fixing the game through code or player generation, you continuously work in the direction of punish for this or that.

You seem to want to lower the ceiling while other owners are trying to raise the floor.

I get a sense you blame this on other owners, but it is truly just adaptation to the broken game.

Idk where you draw I have any affinity towards RO, but yeah I’d have to say it seems like a waste of time. I’m not really sure how much any of this even affects you in RO because my understanding is you cannot really do much in RO besides stare at your team. I say this knowing there is not much to do in non-RO so there must be even less in RO. How does this actually impact you besides sometimes people do it? Do they win above all other teams in dominant fashion, probably not. You just seem fixated on the optics and audacity for people to do such. I want to understand why you want to punish people.
Last edited at 5/29/2024 6:12 am

Re: May 2024 Update

By Pernbronze
5/29/2024 6:14 am
Waitwut wrote:
Pernbronze wrote:
Waitwut wrote:
Pernbronze wrote:
Cjfred68 wrote:
The crux of the problem is any player on offense or defense that touches the ball or is attempting to touch the ball needs at the bare minimum 70 speed.

So when you are playing in a full league with experienced owners by the time you reach round 4....any player with the necessary speed or obtainable speed through position change are gone.

People complain about exploit ball which essentially means using fast players so the simple solution that requires no change to the Sim engine is to create a floor for speed for all players.

50 speed DBs and WRs wouldn't even be invited to an NFL combine so why are they created in the draft class which is significantly smaller then the pool of draft eligible players available in the NFL. Sure slow WRs & DBs exist all through college and they never make anyone's draft board so the Sim should create each draft class with those players automatically eliminated.

This has multiple benefits including making other skills much more valuable and limiting the need to switch so many players to different positions just to gain speed.

That's my opinion.


While a speed cap would help I'd like to see it be the balance of relevant skills. So like if your wr is currently an exploit player with 95 speed but 20 route running then he'd only be running at the speed of a 58 roughly while he's running his routes. Then do the same with catching to determine how fast he can catch and accelerate and then speed and ball carrying after the catch. Factor the other attributes in as play speed. It'd mean 70 speed players with 100 route running would be running like an 85 speed. This is consistent with players that play faster than their 40 time. This I think would be the easiest way to slow down exploit ball.


I’d rather see the talent on the board than complicate matters by rolling out whatever formula this would require. It is extremely punitive given owners have no control over the talent they roster based on the skills the generator provides.

Why does it seem like RO players want to punish everyone while non RO players seemingly just want the game to actually be better.


How is it bad to make the skills other than speed matter? How is it punishing besides you can't just speed exploit everything? There's tons of players with skills other than speed. And your RO hate is just plain weird.


No one has said other skills should not matter. I think where some ideas are about fixing the game through code or player generation, you continuously work in the direction of punish for this or that.

You seem to want to lower the ceiling while other owners are trying to raise the floor.

I get a sense you blame this on other owners, but it is truly just adaptation to the broken game.

Idk where you draw I have any affinity towards RO, but yeah I’d have to say it seems like a waste of time. I’m not really sure how much any of this even affects you in RO because my understanding is you cannot really do much in RO besides stare at your team. I say this knowing there is not much to do in non-RO so there must be even less in RO. How does this actually impact you besides sometimes people do it? Do they win above all other teams in dominant fashion, probably not. You’re just fixated on the optics and coined term.

What has you so sore about this?


You are making zero sense. How is changing the code to better incorporate other skills punishing others and not changing the code? How am I blaming others by trying to fix why exploits work? The only difference between RO and non RO is the play calling. Meaning this particular issue has more effect in RO than non-RO since it's based in players abilities rather than play exploits. You seem oblivious to what anything in the discussion actually means.

Re: May 2024 Update

By Waitwut
5/29/2024 6:31 am
Pernbronze wrote:
Waitwut wrote:
Pernbronze wrote:
Waitwut wrote:
Pernbronze wrote:
Cjfred68 wrote:
The crux of the problem is any player on offense or defense that touches the ball or is attempting to touch the ball needs at the bare minimum 70 speed.

So when you are playing in a full league with experienced owners by the time you reach round 4....any player with the necessary speed or obtainable speed through position change are gone.

People complain about exploit ball which essentially means using fast players so the simple solution that requires no change to the Sim engine is to create a floor for speed for all players.

50 speed DBs and WRs wouldn't even be invited to an NFL combine so why are they created in the draft class which is significantly smaller then the pool of draft eligible players available in the NFL. Sure slow WRs & DBs exist all through college and they never make anyone's draft board so the Sim should create each draft class with those players automatically eliminated.

This has multiple benefits including making other skills much more valuable and limiting the need to switch so many players to different positions just to gain speed.

That's my opinion.


While a speed cap would help I'd like to see it be the balance of relevant skills. So like if your wr is currently an exploit player with 95 speed but 20 route running then he'd only be running at the speed of a 58 roughly while he's running his routes. Then do the same with catching to determine how fast he can catch and accelerate and then speed and ball carrying after the catch. Factor the other attributes in as play speed. It'd mean 70 speed players with 100 route running would be running like an 85 speed. This is consistent with players that play faster than their 40 time. This I think would be the easiest way to slow down exploit ball.


I’d rather see the talent on the board than complicate matters by rolling out whatever formula this would require. It is extremely punitive given owners have no control over the talent they roster based on the skills the generator provides.

Why does it seem like RO players want to punish everyone while non RO players seemingly just want the game to actually be better.


How is it bad to make the skills other than speed matter? How is it punishing besides you can't just speed exploit everything? There's tons of players with skills other than speed. And your RO hate is just plain weird.


No one has said other skills should not matter. I think where some ideas are about fixing the game through code or player generation, you continuously work in the direction of punish for this or that.

You seem to want to lower the ceiling while other owners are trying to raise the floor.

I get a sense you blame this on other owners, but it is truly just adaptation to the broken game.

Idk where you draw I have any affinity towards RO, but yeah I’d have to say it seems like a waste of time. I’m not really sure how much any of this even affects you in RO because my understanding is you cannot really do much in RO besides stare at your team. I say this knowing there is not much to do in non-RO so there must be even less in RO. How does this actually impact you besides sometimes people do it? Do they win above all other teams in dominant fashion, probably not. You’re just fixated on the optics and coined term.

What has you so sore about this?


You are making zero sense. How is changing the code to better incorporate other skills punishing others and not changing the code? How am I blaming others by trying to fix why exploits work? The only difference between RO and non RO is the play calling. Meaning this particular issue has more effect in RO than non-RO since it's based in players abilities rather than play exploits. You seem oblivious to what anything in the discussion actually means.


Even in your examples you displayed a “ exploit player” as being a 95 speed wr with low route running. The things wrong with this anecdotal representation: was the player generated as a WR? If yes, not an exploit. Does said WR have any other receiver abilities not bottom of the barrel, if yes then why should the speed be diminished due to poor route running?

I think you framed that in a way to make your argument that an owner would purposely do that while overlooking the reality that the game is constantly generating players with these attributes. Hence why you cannot punish an owner for using the player even if it is an outright exploit- mind you I don’t think outright speed only plays, there is still a need for positional skills.

I would carry this further and say that if you run any player at a position long enough they should develop positional skills over time instead of being a perpetual bust.
Last edited at 5/29/2024 6:35 am