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Re: Draft player obfuscation

By raymattison21
9/24/2017 9:42 am
I hope the speed bump very significant and abundant in the next draft . Also, I do not see why the same thing is not done with strength , intelligence , and discipline . Nothing really below 50...at least with any regularity or abundance .

Re: Draft player obfuscation

By setherick
9/24/2017 9:53 am
raymattison21 wrote:
I hope the speed bump very significant and abundant in the next draft . Also, I do not see why the same thing is not done with strength , intelligence , and discipline . Nothing really below 50...at least with any regularity or abundance .


I don't really care about the others since there are not a lot of benefits to them as far as we know.

Strength, for instance...does it affect tackle? does it affect B&R?

It's supposed to allow RBs to push the pile, but when is the last time you've seen a 50 SP RB with 100 ST and Break Tackle go beast mode?

Intelligence is important for letting players gain play knowledge. But we've never been told the full list of things it is for. We know it somehow affects Punt Returns. We know it somehow affects how WRs run routes. But play knowledge is the only real benefit.

Discipline doesn't matter because of how penalties actually work in the game.

Re: Draft player obfuscation

By raymattison21
9/24/2017 11:06 am
setherick wrote:
raymattison21 wrote:
I hope the speed bump very significant and abundant in the next draft . Also, I do not see why the same thing is not done with strength , intelligence , and discipline . Nothing really below 50...at least with any regularity or abundance .


I don't really care about the others since there are not a lot of benefits to them as far as we know.

Strength, for instance...does it affect tackle? does it affect B&R?

It's supposed to allow RBs to push the pile, but when is the last time you've seen a 50 SP RB with 100 ST and Break Tackle go beast mode?

Intelligence is important for letting players gain play knowledge. But we've never been told the full list of things it is for. We know it somehow affects Punt Returns. We know it somehow affects how WRs run routes. But play knowledge is the only real benefit.

Discipline doesn't matter because of how penalties actually work in the game.


Closing the gap of non improvable skills will drive the importance of improvable skill ratings. I want technique to matter more . All those non improvable skills are too powerful in comparison .

Re: Draft player obfuscation

By setherick
9/24/2017 11:12 am
Sure, but my point is that there is only one non-improvable skill that makes a difference right now, and that's speed.

The only time that ST matters for OL is in run blocking. I don't think it's even used in pass blocking.

If you listen to JDB's comments on Bryno's latest MFN podcast, JDB sees football player skill boiling down to who is fastest. It's an incredible shortsighted way of looking at the sport and ignores most of the realities of who makes it in the NFL (i.e. the fastest players are rarely drafted, they don't usually play as long because their body mass composition can't absorb the punishment of the game, there are a number of techniques you can use to limit a players speed like playing off their hip and making them trip over their own feet, most players in the NFL at a position are equally fast, pure speed is rarely used until a player breaks into the open field, etc etc etc etc). Not to mention that in the NFL who is faster than whom breaks down to fractions of a second and not multiple seconds like here in MFN.
Last edited at 9/24/2017 11:46 am

Re: Draft player obfuscation

By raymattison21
9/24/2017 12:04 pm
setherick wrote:
Sure, but my point is that there is only one non-improvable skill that makes a difference right now, and that's speed.

The only time that ST matters for OL is in run blocking. I don't think it's even used in pass blocking.

If you listen to JDB's comments on Bryno's latest MFN podcast, JDB sees football player skill boiling down to who is fastest. It's an incredible shortsighted way of looking at the sport and ignores most of the realities of who makes it in the NFL (i.e. the fastest players are rarely drafted, they don't usually play as long because their body mass composition can't absorb the punishment of the game, there are a number of techniques you can use to limit a players speed like playing off their hip and making them trip over their own feet, most players in the NFL at a position are equally fast, pure speed is rarely used until a player breaks into the open field, etc etc etc etc). Not to mention that in the NFL who is faster than whom breaks down to fractions of a second and not multiple seconds like here in MFN.



The game would play better is speed was like madden....or at least like madden when I played it. Well, not when I first played it the rating were 0-10........not 0-100. When it came popular ..ha!

. Now that speed is distributed through weight....I feel most weight groups should stay within 30 points of each other . Small guys 100 to 70....big guys 70 to 40. Nobody slower unless they are like 330 pounds plus.

And fast is created by technical moves. Just watch clips of Deion vs rice. It's so clear the way rice would create separation vs. Any DB of this day with a 4.68 fourty.

I honestly think madden did the same thing . .....they just played with player ratings till the nfl like stats were produced by the current code they used.

Re: Draft player obfuscation

By WarEagle
9/24/2017 6:20 pm
raymattison21 wrote:
I feel most weight groups should stay within 30 points of each other . Small guys 100 to 70....big guys 70 to 40.


Weight should not determine speed.

In that world Doug Flutie would be faster than Bo Jackson.

Re: Draft player obfuscation

By setherick
9/24/2017 6:40 pm
WarEagle wrote:
raymattison21 wrote:
I feel most weight groups should stay within 30 points of each other . Small guys 100 to 70....big guys 70 to 40.


Weight should not determine speed.

In that world Doug Flutie would be faster than Bo Jackson.



I'm happy that we've gotten to a point in the game where we can at least compare how fast player X is to player Y.

Now, if we could shrink the difference in the numbers, so 100 SP was a 4.2 40 and 0 SP was a 5.2 40, then we wouldn't be complaining so much about how fast players are always better.

Re: Draft player obfuscation

By Ares
9/24/2017 6:59 pm
setherick wrote:

Now, if we could shrink the difference in the numbers, so 100 SP was a 4.2 40 and 0 SP was a 5.2 40, then we wouldn't be complaining so much about how fast players are always better.


Are you talking about the 40 range for a player at the exact same weight who gen'd with a 100 SPD vs 0 SPD, or the weight adjusted SPD? For the latter, the range for the 40 should be 4.2 at 100 SPD, 6 at 0. There are numerous linemen in the NFL who ran in the 5.5-6 range. Because of the impact of weight on speed, you should really only see 0 speed at an extreme margin, so the bulk of players would still gen within the anticipated bell curve, with who is/isn't signed to an active roster further normalizing the range.
Last edited at 9/24/2017 7:00 pm

Re: Draft player obfuscation

By raymattison21
9/24/2017 7:26 pm
WarEagle wrote:
raymattison21 wrote:
I feel most weight groups should stay within 30 points of each other . Small guys 100 to 70....big guys 70 to 40.


Weight should not determine speed.

In that world Doug Flutie would be faster than Bo Jackson.



It all how you determine your weight penalizing groups . I was referring to our system as I agree with your statement. I like using density of a player. Flute is slower and lighter as well as less dense.

I am working (speaking) with our current system . That would have sub 200 pounders running 4.7 fourties to about 5.2 and big guys (300 plus pounds ) running a bit faster than 7 second forties with like 40 speed.

The whole ideal is to close the gaps of our 0 to 100 speed . ....per weight groups it is still like a slow 4 second dash all the way up to double digits . It's too big of a fourty range.

In our world of linear weight/speed penalties bo is an outlier . He's so fast he might be the standard to go by, but he breaks my system musing density . As well as a few others .

Re: Draft player obfuscation

By setherick
9/24/2017 7:36 pm
Ares wrote:
setherick wrote:

Now, if we could shrink the difference in the numbers, so 100 SP was a 4.2 40 and 0 SP was a 5.2 40, then we wouldn't be complaining so much about how fast players are always better.


Are you talking about the 40 range for a player at the exact same weight who gen'd with a 100 SPD vs 0 SPD, or the weight adjusted SPD? For the latter, the range for the 40 should be 4.2 at 100 SPD, 6 at 0. There are numerous linemen in the NFL who ran in the 5.5-6 range. Because of the impact of weight on speed, you should really only see 0 speed at an extreme margin, so the bulk of players would still gen within the anticipated bell curve, with who is/isn't signed to an active roster further normalizing the range.


Not really thinking of either. I was more thinking the SP system needs to be blown up. Right now SP really means open field SP and quickness. Most players never travel 40 yards in a play, most don't even travel 5 yards in a play. But on MFN, SP controls both of these things with AC not really adding much value to the calculation. Otherwise, 100 SP RBs with 0 AC would be getting blown up in the backfield.

And, yes, a range of 4.2 to 6.2 representing a drop of 0.02 in 40 time (100 - 4.2, 99 - 4.22, etc...) would work out well.