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Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By setherick
5/19/2018 10:45 am
mardn72 wrote:
That nickel blitz play overuse is definitely a problem. I don’t think you can judge the QBs performance with that in play. Plus, it was a rookie QB in his third regular season game. I bet his play knowledge is minimal still.

Those individual plays you flagged don’t seem out of line. Unfortunate but unless they happen all the time, hard to say it’s anymore than bad luck.


The mystery knockdown was the plague of 0.3.x versions. LBs way out of a play knocking down passes they had no business knocking down.

The reason I highlighted the 50 M2M CB play is because there are too many defensive players in all leagues that have 50 M2M. It's because defenders are undergenerated and SP was the only thing that mattered. So there are a lot of 90 SP, 50 M2M nickle and dime backs across leagues that will suddenly become useless. I don't mind it if 80+ M2M players play up to their abilities, but we'll see.

And, while I agree rookie QBs will struggle, this is an 80 Accuracy QB that threw above 60% in the first two games. If I can just run a nickle blitz 1 pass key defense and beat a QB that badly, that's all I'll do on Long down plays.

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By raymattison21
5/19/2018 3:33 pm

I had a lot of plays where receivers beat the blitz and the qb just missed them or they just missed the ball. Granted my one wr which blew alot of wide open deep, medium, and short passes had 60 catch (my other 90 happened only twice deep) but it didn't stop my backs with sub 15 receiver skill making short catches out of the backfeild. Some when they were covered well, but the deep pass makes little sense now.

The lack of long passes is over powering the penalty of the blitz, but why? My guy has plenty of experience and accuracy but he is dumb and weak in FoV , lookoff, and release .

And seth that db has 50 man and 50 speed. The wr had 78 speed and 100 route. Really no comparison , but we do need better dbs or worse wr generation then.

As for those interceptions that bounce off the wr back and dbs catch up and pick it off they do look real bad and they happen too often. I like to imagine the pass is thrown behind and the wr can't handle it and the db wrestles it away.

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By lellow2011
5/19/2018 4:13 pm
This play that resulted in a safety looked odd to me https://beta87.myfootballnow.com/watch/1777#323890

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By raymattison21
5/19/2018 6:14 pm
lellow2011 wrote:
This play that resulted in a safety looked odd to me https://beta87.myfootballnow.com/watch/1777#323890


This is one of those plays I wish intelligence played a bigger factor for qbs. Sparks and brim are beasts but when you see two de barreling down on you your gonna rollout and throw it away . Especially if it's safety . Kuntz has the smarts and mobility to do so but in general those play action long passes result in sacks way to often.

It's like there should be some factor that allows the qb to tell if a blitz is coming. Did those LBS really sell it that well ? Perhaps pass rush could come in to play for blitzing players. As in the higher the pass rush ability would stifle a qbs ability to see them coming.

Looks like he stumbled back even further and gave up in the end zone. I haven't seen much logic in rolling out and or throwing it away under this code at all. One qb took of and ran for like 30 yards on me a few games back, but that is it.

Kuntz s scramble is 38 so perhaps he just didn't redistribute the pocket well on that play . Still, probably one of the worst play calls by the offense deep in the red zone. And the right tackle had 46 pass block.

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By setherick
5/20/2018 7:06 am
raymattison21 wrote:

And seth that db has 50 man and 50 speed. The wr had 78 speed and 100 route. Really no comparison , but we do need better dbs or worse wr generation then.


I don't think he should have been able to make a play. But he also shouldn't have stood around clueless as to what to do. At least in 0.4.2, he would have moved down field with the WR even if he ultimately loses that match up. (To be clear, this isn't just visually worse, it is programmatically worse because it is literally game breaking.)

The problem with WR generation in most leagues is that WRs can be generated from 4 positions - RB, FB, TE, and WR - since owners are savvy enough to move players where they should be. You don't really get the same quality of DB generation and you don't have as many positions that can easily adjust to them or as quickly. This is going to become worse in 0.4.3 because you will have to account for SP, M2M, and B&R for your DBs.

* Low M2M is going to break plays like what happened with that 50 M2M DB above.

* Low B&R is going to cause DBs to get burned deep when they try to jam since bad B&R players are trying to jam just as much as good B&R players. Even though this was "fixed" at one point during the 0.4.3, it's happening again.

* Low SP DBs are going to get burned in Medium and Long routes still even if they have good M2M because of the diving catch code that allows WRs to get up and keep on running after making "a great diving catch".

On the other hand, QBs can't throw short anymore, so maybe it all evens out.

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By raymattison21
5/20/2018 10:59 am
setherick wrote:
raymattison21 wrote:

And seth that db has 50 man and 50 speed. The wr had 78 speed and 100 route. Really no comparison , but we do need better dbs or worse wr generation then.


I don't think he should have been able to make a play. But he also shouldn't have stood around clueless as to what to do. At least in 0.4.2, he would have moved down field with the WR even if he ultimately loses that match up. (To be clear, this isn't just visually worse, it is programmatically worse because it is literally game breaking.)

in theory I agree but I think 4.2 is unplayable but not solely due to man coverage . There is no doubt more strategy is required under this code. If he had 50 speed and 100s in other categories the story would be different . There is more than one way to go about fixing it and stragety is not being tested enough.

The problem with WR generation in most leagues is that WRs can be generated from 4 positions - RB, FB, TE, and WR - since owners are savvy enough to move players where they should be. You don't really get the same quality of DB generation and you don't have as many positions that can easily adjust to them or as quickly. This is going to become worse in 0.4.3 because you will have to account for SP, M2M, and B&R for your DBs.

in agreement with player generation , but one could argue this change will make zone an option ( once it gets fixed). Also, I have no problems with high hard minimums to be successful as plenty of other ratings will never look right if they are low. Like speed and strength .

* Low M2M is going to break plays like what happened with that 50 M2M DB above.

I seen 90 man coverage get beat bad. The stutter needs to be tightened even more, but it doesn't mean that guy can play man. Still, he should be able to a 50 speed 50 route. For some reason I don't see that under this new change.

* Low B&R is going to cause DBs to get burned deep when they try to jam since bad B&R players are trying to jam just as much as good B&R players. Even though this was "fixed" at one point during the 0.4.3, it's happening again.

this should be valuable and important for and man coverage . Every CB , NB, and who ever has the chance to line head up on a reciever should have a high level of skill here.


* Low SP DBs are going to get burned in Medium and Long routes still even if they have good M2M because of the diving catch code that allows WRs to get up and keep on running after making "a great diving catch".

I just see this as another hard minimum . Plenty of 70 speed DBS are playing well. But in general IRL DB put up the fastest 40s. The diving catch could use some work.

On the other hand, QBs can't throw short anymore, so maybe it all evens out.

I am not seeing that...maybe vs. The blitz , but that makes qbs dumb and defenders in to play makers. It always been that way that why blitzes work so well.



In general , faster player generation is needed for dbs and qbs need to be looked at. They don't run or find the open man often enough.

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By setherick
5/20/2018 9:45 pm
Enjoy being the only voice on the boards Ray. You're criticizing me playing a player more than you are realizing that the bad players are highlighting more problems with the game than the good ones are. The broken coverage above would have happened if the player would have had 90 SP and 50 M2M. Stutter still breaks coverage code.

To that end, let's just release 0.4.3 because it's going to be fun to exploit.

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By Ragnulf-le-maudit
5/21/2018 3:37 am
Very strange play by the QB : rolls out, has a clear running lane, throws across the field.
https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8076#1464966

Who should be covering the TE ? Is it the effect of the overuse penalty ?
https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8076#1464973

The DB has no reaction to the ball. I'v seen it at least 2 times in the game
[url]https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8076#1464991[/url

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By mardn72
5/21/2018 11:30 am
Broke down film for my first two games. It still feels like the stutter step is too powerful. In particular, I watched this WR embarrass people all game, despite having very average ratings. https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/player/13269

The other thing I'm concerned with now, and it's a feeling that's been growing for a number of games now, it the logic that causes QBs to have bad passes. The ones that are flagged "slipped out of his hands", "threw it behind the receiver", etc. Even elite QBs seems to have that trigger way too much, and in big bunches it seems.

I wonder if we need to make poor-to-average WR ratings behave worse, while letting high QB skills have even more of a positive impact.

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By jdavidbakr - Site Admin
5/21/2018 11:51 am
mardn72 wrote:
Broke down film for my first two games. It still feels like the stutter step is too powerful. In particular, I watched this WR embarrass people all game, despite having very average ratings. https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/player/13269


I'll turn down the stutter impact a tad more. I'm trying to make small tweaks to it, so let me know if it continues to be too strong.

mardn72 wrote:
The other thing I'm concerned with now, and it's a feeling that's been growing for a number of games now, it the logic that causes QBs to have bad passes. The ones that are flagged "slipped out of his hands", "threw it behind the receiver", etc. Even elite QBs seems to have that trigger way too much, and in big bunches it seems.

I wonder if we need to make poor-to-average WR ratings behave worse, while letting high QB skills have even more of a positive impact.


Some of those color comments are because of the WR ratings and not the QB ratings; also the longer the pass, the less likely it will be caught, and some of the color is to help those apparent 'drops' to have more of a reason. (A long pass is more likely to be just out of reach, even for an elite QB, for example) I'm really just trying to give an idea of which factor in the probability calculation seems to be having the greatest impact, but there are a lot of variables that goes into the calculation and it's only picking one. I'm fine taking it out or reducing it if it's too verbose or too confusing.