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Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By jdavidbakr - Site Admin
5/31/2018 8:46 am
I didn't end up pushing an update yesterday, but I have for tonight.

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By setherick
5/31/2018 10:07 am
jdavidbakr wrote:
I didn't end up pushing an update yesterday, but I have for tonight.


That makes more sense then.

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By Ragnulf-le-maudit
5/31/2018 10:27 am
Are there any stats for completion % by distance ? I think that would be helpfull. Right now, i have no clue why my QB has a 70 passer rating, and my 2 best WR, one "elite", the other very good and technically sound are under 50% catch rate.

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By Ragnulf-le-maudit
6/01/2018 4:52 am
He has nobody to interfer with
https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8161#1480355

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By setherick
6/01/2018 5:01 am
Look, I don't know why it is so hard to fix a coverage problem other than it will require multiple seasons or a conversion to get athletic enough DBs to really fix it, but the passing game is utter garbage and the game is now unplayable in beta.

1) Play knowledge was always an interesting concept that was poorly implemented. It takes so long for players to develop play knowledge most because it's not tied to anything like INT so 100 INT players develop as slowly as 0 INT players. But with the way play knowledge is affecting QBs, no one is going to waste multiple calendar years on 0.4.3 to get their QBs up to full play knowledge.

2) The distance penalties are so obvious that it's just going to **** people off watching their wide open WRs stop after every catch because you can't figure out a better way to fix coverage. It makes the game look really stupid. Yes, in real life, a WR occasionally needs to stop mid route to make a catch, but it is the exception and not the norm. Most QBs will hit a WR that is LESS THAN 10 YARDS AWAY FROM THEM in stride 99% of the time, or they won't be starting for very long.

3) I don't know how you did it, but QB decision making has gotten steadily worse since around April 1. Pre-April 1, this game was one coverage fix away from being a solid improvement over the old code, but all of the QB tweaks and nerfs and other nonsense have left QBs consistently throwing into double coverage, not reading their WRs, not checking down, not throwing the ball away at all...you get the picture.

---

1) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8157#1479511
a) QB doesn't let the play develop at all.

2) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8157#1479517
a) This is how stupid distance penalties and other BS things to nerf QB are.

3) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8157#1479527
a) QB doesn't give the play time to develop. WR in the middle of the field is open when the ball is thrown.

4) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8157#1479529
a) "Throwaway"

5) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8157#1479537
a) The RBs are wide open and the QB throws into triple coverage.

6) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8157#1479545
a) WHY CAN'T QBS NOW COMPLETE THE SIMPLEST THROWS?

7) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8157#1479551
a) Another time when the QB throws a bad pass 10 yards down the field. Garbage.

8) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8157#1479554
a) Oh another wide open WR that the QB misses by a mile. Garbage.

9) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8157#1479571
a) The TE is open, so this of course results in another garbage throw to someone that isn't.

10) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8157#1479572
a) QB LOCKS ON TO THE TE WHO ISN'T EVEN RUNNING A ROUTE. GARBAGE.

11) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8157#1479573
a) QB doesn't give the play time to develop and ends up throwing the ball to where both cross WRs converge.

11) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8157#1479584
a) I don't know what the outside WR does or why he stops. But the problem here (other than the fact the RB has 5 catching) is that the QB doesn't give the play time to develop.

12) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8157#1479585
a) Oh for garbage sake...

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By mardn72
6/01/2018 11:21 am
Hey Setherick, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I'm just not seeing the games that same way you are. I've watched every one of my games this season and I see a nice balance between offensive and defensive playmaking, my QB making dumpoff passes regularly, and my QB hitting 2nd and 3rd targets regularly. Maybe would you watch my latest game and see what you see happening? https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/log/8153 I know you don't always have a lot of free time, so no worries if you don't want to spend what time have breaking down my film.
Last edited at 6/01/2018 11:21 am

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By raymattison21
6/01/2018 12:15 pm
mardn72 wrote:
Hey Setherick, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I'm just not seeing the games that same way you are. I've watched every one of my games this season and I see a nice balance between offensive and defensive playmaking, my QB making dumpoff passes regularly, and my QB hitting 2nd and 3rd targets regularly. Maybe would you watch my latest game and see what you see happening? https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/log/8153 I know you don't always have a lot of free time, so no worries if you don't want to spend what time have breaking down my film.


My only major concerns were the power of blitzes with pass keys. I feel they disrupt talent too much. My qb and recievers were better but we're out performed . While your qb is great as well but the wrs are not. I thought my qb should have made better decisions and torched your worse set of dbs .

For my team we had 13 out 19 blitzes were on run plays while you blitzed 40 out of 54 total plays.

Should not cover plays work better here vs. Pass plays? We generated enough pressure but we're credited only two hurries.

I don't want 80 % blitz plans always winning games. Yes we went deep a few times, but I think the distance penalties should be weakened . At times Your slower and some less or equally talented wrs had alot of catch overs down feild vs. Well covered non blitz pass defenses.

Yes, you probably game planned better, but I would hate to see everyone blitzing alot to make up for a less talented set of cover guys. As you need great dbs to blitz that much in a strait man, cover one or cover two defense .

Also, There were several plays where your less route less speed clearly badly beat my cover guys for no real statistical reason.

Don't get me wrong I liked alot of what I saw but the stutter needs to be weakened more and blitzes need to be penalized even more(or bump the distance penalty down a bit more) One other option is to just make qbs throw to the open player nearest to the first down as There is way to many check down passes to backs right now.

And for some reason slots are killing it but my elite wrs are dropping the ball on the outside. I am thinking distance penalty . It allows too much wiggle room to blitz as often as you did and over powers it.

If these were tightened a bit more I would be ready for a release , and the qbs rollout quick ........that is ok as long as they tuck it down and get a few yards from time to time . Not throw it back across the feild into double or triple coverage .
Last edited at 6/01/2018 12:17 pm

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By setherick
6/01/2018 7:41 pm
mardn72 wrote:
Hey Setherick, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I'm just not seeing the games that same way you are. I've watched every one of my games this season and I see a nice balance between offensive and defensive playmaking, my QB making dumpoff passes regularly, and my QB hitting 2nd and 3rd targets regularly. Maybe would you watch my latest game and see what you see happening? https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/log/8153 I know you don't always have a lot of free time, so no worries if you don't want to spend what time have breaking down my film.


I will if I get a chance. I have some time tonight, so I may review a few of them.

As far as being argumentative, I'm being extra obnoxious for a reason. Prior to 4/4, I was the biggest promoter of 0.4.3. It was awesome. It was nearly ready. It had one problem, and just one, stutter stepping broke plays badly -- and really it shouldn't have been a difficult problem to solve.

Since then, as far as I can tell, here are all the things that have been tried:

1) No more dive tackles (made long passes more exploitative)
2) Some kind of funniness with interceptions, which I think was the result of QBs not seeing defenders (made all passing worse)
3) Ridiculous distance penalties added to QB (made all passing worse)
4) Diving catches that make WRs stop almost every catch (just dumb)

Note that none of those 4. NONE OF THEM. Address the root problem with 0.4.3 as of 4/4. The ONLY problem with 0.4.3 at that point. AND a problem THAT STILL exists. DBs stop covering WRs after a stutter.

Now, JDB will argue that these changes were absolutely necessary to stop long passing. But this is absolutely untrue. In the 2035 season, I had no problem controlling Ray's medium/long passing game using CBs that had 100 M2M but slow speed: https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/box/7446

The reason that I had no problem using slow CBs with 100 M2M was because M2M was appropriately slowing up receivers enough that CBs could dive tackle them.

Then JDB got rid of dive tackling for some reason I'll never understand right before I played Ray in the 2036 season and this happened: https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/box/7938

And that was the start of my hatred of 0.4.3 (the worst update, which is say a lot because 0.4.0 was...well, it wasn't good).

So between 4/4 and now, 0.4.3 went from being a great product that would have greatly moved the needle on MFN to a product that makes MFN look amateurish to an extreme. AND the ONLY pre-4/4 problem STILL has NOT been addressed. It's just not noticeable because QBs **** REALLY HARD.

I'm also being extra aggressive because I specifically picked up two random beta teams and implemented new game plans to both of them just like a new player. And if I was a new player, and if I had NOT invested a few hundred hours into beta testing at this point, there is no way I would play the game long enough for QBs to gain play knowledge enough to supposedly make them work.

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By raymattison21
6/01/2018 8:59 pm
There was a good 20+ games played between those two games. Those plans were completely different . My teams talent and experience were different too. I am thinking a bit more than the dive was changed during that time.

That second plan was installed and pieces were added to expose what I saw weak in the prior / active code.
Last edited at 6/01/2018 9:00 pm

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By setherick
6/01/2018 9:10 pm
You're right. What you did in the second game was abuse the **** out of a few plays, but for the most part, all the plays that you called in the second game (except for the I Form 212 plays) were the same from the first game. And the strategy was the same.

Also, the most points I had allowed that season prior to that crapshow was 29. The simple fact of the matter was that coverage worked if you had good M2M and B&R guys. Plays just broke when WRs stuttered.

But...eff it...let's just release 0.4.3 tomorrow. I'm sure that no one will be mad.
Last edited at 6/01/2018 9:12 pm