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Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By setherick
6/03/2018 11:47 am
raymattison21 wrote:

an elite , experienced, max play familiar, look off QB like brady has checked down to rbs without having them in his FOV. Based on coverage looks and intial movement of the defense at the snap or soon after one could guess if a checkdown is open or not and make the play.


I swear I was going to let this go. I swear. It's Sunday morning, and I'm doing house chores, and I swear I wasn't going to take the time to break out the football 101 course again....but since this weekend has been all about basic football tactics, here we go.

This is completely untrue.

New England runs a passing system that is built on the Bill Walsh school of progressive reads. Brady reads the top level, mid level (i.e. Gronk), and then comes back to the outlet (i.e. Edleman, White, previously Woodhead, previously Welker, previously K Faulk, previously...).

If the defense blitzes, Brady skips reading the top two levels and goes immediately to the outlet. If the outlet is covered, he'll throw it away or take the sack.

Progressive reads still rely on FOV, and the outlet is usually in Brady's FOV anyway because Brady squares the field better than any QB since Joe Montana. Here's a perfect example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq9uGc1dcmk

Brady squares up the field and reads the top two levels. When he sees the pressure, he immediately switches to James. James is in his FOV the entire time. Brady just doesn't read him until he sees that the top two levels are covered.

Progressive reads are particularly useful against teams that play zone: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201502010sea.htm

And: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201702050atl.htm

---

I asked for progressive reads in MFN more than two years ago. But we can't have a system like that because QBs aren't squaring the field right now.

...and found it - 1/31/2016.

jdavidbakr wrote:
setherick wrote:
The easiest way I could think to make it work programmatically would be to split the field into three zones - long, intermediate, short. The QB checks to see if a WR has reached the long zone, if not checks the intermediate zone for open WRs, if not checks the short zone. Then cycle back through.


That's an interesting thought, I will take that into consideration. The question remains, though, how long should the QB stay in the long zone on a long pass? If it's so short then he'll always throw shorter passes.
Last edited at 6/03/2018 12:04 pm

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By raymattison21
6/03/2018 12:09 pm
setherick wrote:
raymattison21 wrote:

an elite , experienced, max play familiar, look off QB like brady has checked down to rbs without having them in his FOV. Based on coverage looks and intial movement of the defense at the snap or soon after one could guess if a checkdown is open or not and make the play.


I swear I was going to let this go. I swear. It's Sunday morning, and I'm doing house chores, and I swear I wasn't going to take the time to break out the football 101 course again....but since this weekend has been all about basic football tactics, here we go.

This is completely untrue.

New England runs a passing system that is built on the Bill Walsh school of progressive reads. Brady reads the top level, mid level (i.e. Gronk), and then comes back to the outlet (i.e. Edleman, White, previously Woodhead, previously Welker, previously K Faulk, previously...).

If the defense blitzes, Brady skips reading the top two levels and goes immediately to the outlet. If the outlet is covered, he'll throw it away or take the sack.

Progressive reads still rely on FOV, and the outlet is usually in Brady's FOV anyway because Brady squares the field better than any QB since Joe Montana. Here's a perfect example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq9uGc1dcmk

Brady squares up the field and reads the top two levels. When he sees the pressure, he immediately switches to James. James is in his FOV the entire time. Brady just doesn't read him until he sees that the top two levels are covered.

Progressive reads are particularly useful against teams that play zone: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201502010sea.htm

And: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201702050atl.htm

---

I asked for progressive reads in MFN more than two years ago. But we can't have a system like that because QBs aren't squaring the field right now.


I have watched him do it. The back was not in his FOV. He was squared slightly to the right sideline and quickly turned barely set and threw almost at the same time. Perhaps he was looking off defenders. Swaying the zone away but his back was turned to the target when he made the choice of who he was going to pass to. He's thrown that pass thousands of times. So why would the back be there?

Yes, in a perfect world it works like you say, but IRL sometimes you have to improvise a little and make magic happen. Which isn't a linear code of direct actions and results.

But I did happen and will happen again cause it's no that difficult to do under the right circumstances. Certain trick plays and double screens work the same way in order to sell the defense as we're not talking long passes here.

Most likely Brady read the defense pre snap. Read them again in his three step drop, but knew the back side RB was the target and sold it to the defense.

Sorry no links , but I know it happened last year. And we're talking an angle of a few degrees in order to sell the defense.
Last edited at 6/03/2018 12:11 pm

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By setherick
6/03/2018 12:21 pm
I haven't found any clips either, but I didn't look long. What I assume is happening on plays like that is that Brady is popping his hips to switch his FOV quickly enough to read the check down. (That's the hips part of the stupid mantra above... :))

Even still. A check down receiver should never be beyond 180 degrees from the QB. Otherwise, the QB is throwing the ball backward. JDB is already simulating hip popping for 100 FOV QBs by giving them a 170 degree FOV. If the QB is squared, he's seeing basically the whole field.
Last edited at 6/03/2018 12:24 pm

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By Ragnulf-le-maudit
6/04/2018 6:45 am
After a quick look at my last game, i find the last tweak was a good progress. There are some adjustment or dives on short passes, but way fewer. Besides that, the passing game looks more fluid and realistic.
I liked it.
Since I'm on my phone, I can't link any game action. Sorry.

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By setherick
6/04/2018 7:11 am
Ragnulf-le-maudit wrote:
After a quick look at my last game, i find the last tweak was a good progress. There are some adjustment or dives on short passes, but way fewer. Besides that, the passing game looks more fluid and realistic.
I liked it.
Since I'm on my phone, I can't link any game action. Sorry.


I agree. The one thing that still concerns me is the lack of clean RB passes. This feels like something beyond player attributes because RB passing was overpowered a few iterations ago. I'm also seeing too many wide open WRs that have to come to a dead stop to catch the ball - again feels compensatory. But overall it's better. I'm not taking time to link film until 0.4.4 starts tho.

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By lellow2011
6/05/2018 1:34 am
I am seeing a very high number of dump offs to the RB early in the play, just my opinion.

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By setherick
6/05/2018 4:40 am
I would be comfortable with this being released if these plays didn't happen as frequently as they did still: https://beta87.myfootballnow.com/watch/1887#343720

I have yet to see a good, clean pass to a RB that was not from the 113 Short Flare.

Or this: https://beta87.myfootballnow.com/watch/1887#343803

The second one still feels compensatory for bad coverage. The WR is wide open so the game makes him stop to catch the ball so the defense can catch up.

Here's another good example of a pitch pass to a RB where the RB has to stop and fall down to make the play: https://beta87.myfootballnow.com/watch/1887#343824

In previous versions of the code, that's a 15-20 yard gain. It's not my fault no one knows how to cover a RB in the passing game. Why are these plays being nerfed for no reason?
Last edited at 6/05/2018 4:57 am

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By Ragnulf-le-maudit
6/05/2018 5:18 am
setherick wrote:
I would be comfortable with this being released if these plays didn't happen as frequently as they did still: https://beta87.myfootballnow.com/watch/1887#343720

I have yet to see a good, clean pass to a RB that was not from the 113 Short Flare.

Or this: https://beta87.myfootballnow.com/watch/1887#343803

The second one still feels compensatory for bad coverage. The WR is wide open so the game makes him stop to catch the ball so the defense can catch up.

Here's another good example of a pitch pass to a RB where the RB has to stop and fall down to make the play: https://beta87.myfootballnow.com/watch/1887#343824

In previous versions of the code, that's a 15-20 yard gain. It's not my fault no one knows how to cover a RB in the passing game. Why are these plays being nerfed for no reason?



The little dump-offs or pitch passes that make the RB stop to catch the pass are the most annoying. I can stand a wide open WR stopping from time to time, but a RB on a 5 yard pitch… It would be OK if it was rare, JDB do you have stats league-wide to know how often it occurs/game ?. It is way better than before the last tweak though.

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By setherick
6/05/2018 7:20 am
I haven't watched the film on this epic disaster tho: https://beta87.myfootballnow.com/box/1886

At first glance, Portland used one defensive call all game against the 113. So much for teams getting penalized for overusing the blitz, eh?

I mean why game plan when you can just call the Nickle Weak Blitz and the 4-3 WLB MLB blitz all game? Lame.
Last edited at 6/05/2018 7:24 am

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By Infinity on Trial
6/05/2018 7:27 am
For reference, I have three plays that can be called, weighted equally. They were called 9, 6 and 4 times.