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Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By lellow2011
6/29/2018 10:09 am
hchoudhry17 wrote:
Ik this was discussed before, and while it has gotten more realistic, sack numbers seem kinda low to me, since several teams in the league finished with sacks per game totals less than the lowest team total in the NFL past season. Is it just me or was this noted and addressed /resolved?


Very low imo, QBs throw way more here than in the NFL, why are we trying to match NFL sack numbers when the passing attempts don't match the NFL. Had a QB in this league throw over 700 passes and take just 19 sacks.

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By hchoudhry17
6/29/2018 10:13 am
lellow2011 wrote:
hchoudhry17 wrote:
Ik this was discussed before, and while it has gotten more realistic, sack numbers seem kinda low to me, since several teams in the league finished with sacks per game totals less than the lowest team total in the NFL past season. Is it just me or was this noted and addressed /resolved?


Very low imo, QBs throw way more here than in the NFL, why are we trying to match NFL sack numbers when the passing attempts don't match the NFL. Had a QB in this league throw over 700 passes and take just 19 sacks.


Yeah I think that's something to work on for sure for the next one

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By setherick
6/29/2018 11:33 am
Why do we need sacks?

QBs are going to struggle in 0.4.3 to generate yards or complete passes anyway. In MFN-1, a league filled with 100 everything QBs, there was one QB with a QBR of >100 last season. In Beta-87, a league closer to the talent level of most leagues, there were 0.

In the NFL, there were 5 >100 than 2 >98. Accuracy was much better in the NFL than MFN as well because QBs in the NFL complete short passes.

All of these issues are being caused by the QB nerfs that were put into place so that the root problems with coverage didn't have to be addressed.

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By jdavidbakr - Site Admin
6/29/2018 11:41 am
setherick wrote:
Why do we need sacks?

QBs are going to struggle in 0.4.3 to generate yards or complete passes anyway. In MFN-1, a league filled with 100 everything QBs, there was one QB with a QBR of >100 last season. In Beta-87, a league closer to the talent level of most leagues, there were 0.

In the NFL, there were 5 >100 than 2 >98. Accuracy was much better in the NFL than MFN as well because QBs in the NFL complete short passes.

All of these issues are being caused by the QB nerfs that were put into place so that the root problems with coverage didn't have to be addressed.


The sample size is a little difficult to extrapolate this, though, because at game 15 or 16 the short passing game was adjusted to address the bad short passing game. Playoffs have improved QBR so far in MFN-1, but even that is a very small sample size.

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By Infinity on Trial
6/29/2018 11:58 am
setherick wrote:
Accuracy was much better in the NFL than MFN as well because QBs in the NFL complete short passes.

All of these issues are being caused by the QB nerfs that were put into place so that the root problems with coverage didn't have to be addressed.


I think higher completion percentages should be the primary focus. All else aside, the mechanics of the passing game and accuracy especially remain head-scratchers.

But there's another problem here: Until player generation and physical attributes are normalized, none of this really matters.

Let's use max speed as an example. By NFL standards, only the slowest DBs and WRs would ever fall below 80, and never below 75. Few LBs or TEs would be higher than 80. Some elite DEs would reach the mid 60s. Most linemen would be in the high 50s.

As it is, JDB is trying to bend his code for a world where punters and nose tackles are world class sprinters and WRs are trying to get open with a speed relative to someone who runs a 5.5 40. Because speed varies so radically across all positions, it is easy to find and exploit mismatches on both sides of the ball. How much time is already wasted working on sacks/blocking issues for a players with such skewed attributes?

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By hchoudhry17
6/29/2018 1:27 pm
I'm just trying to make sure it wasn't just me and that having great defensive linemen isn't as great of a benefit anymore

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By Infinity on Trial
6/29/2018 1:31 pm
hchoudhry17 wrote:
I'm just trying to make sure it wasn't just me and that having great defensive linemen isn't as great of a benefit anymore


This release resolves a major problem with interior line blocking, which means stud DTs wont run roughshod over teams anymore. I will focus again on finding Gs who are effective run blockers without worrying that a guy with less than 90 for pass blocking will give up 3 sacks per game.

As a happy coincidence, this also seems to have improved PR performance.

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By setherick
6/29/2018 5:08 pm
jdavidbakr wrote:
setherick wrote:
Why do we need sacks?

QBs are going to struggle in 0.4.3 to generate yards or complete passes anyway. In MFN-1, a league filled with 100 everything QBs, there was one QB with a QBR of >100 last season. In Beta-87, a league closer to the talent level of most leagues, there were 0.

In the NFL, there were 5 >100 than 2 >98. Accuracy was much better in the NFL than MFN as well because QBs in the NFL complete short passes.

All of these issues are being caused by the QB nerfs that were put into place so that the root problems with coverage didn't have to be addressed.


The sample size is a little difficult to extrapolate this, though, because at game 15 or 16 the short passing game was adjusted to address the bad short passing game. Playoffs have improved QBR so far in MFN-1, but even that is a very small sample size.


The playoff games I skimmed through suffered through all of the same completion / accuracy / RB stopping problems that I was reporting at the end of the season and being ignored. I mean I could go through all of those games, but I don't see a point since 0.4.3 is released and we're all going to have to deal with them now anyway.

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By setherick
6/29/2018 11:28 pm
Here are my notes from Ray's game where 2 of the 3 TDs thrown by his QB came on fluke broken plays. Otherwise, his QB would have played as badly as his opponent's.. I'll look at the AZ game tomorrow. (This is the code that got released. Just saying.)

1) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8316#1508260
a) Wide open, no pressure, 100 accuracy QB.

2) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8316#1508262
a) Wide open on the cutback, no pressure, 100 accuracy QB.

3) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8316#1508264
a) Covered, but badly. No pressure. QB throws the ball 5 yards behind the play. 100 accuracy QB. Ball travels 25 yards through the air.

4) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8316#1508275
a) Wide open WR. No pressure. WR has to come to a dead stop to catch the pass.

5) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8316#1508276
a) LOLWUT?!?

6) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8316#1508277
a) Wide open RB. Has to come to a dead stop to catch the pass.

7) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8316#1508279
a) Ridiculously bad coverage where the DB is playing the WR's route. The DB is running the exact same pattern as the WR even though the DB shouldn't be aware of the route. And he's doing a _better_ job of it than the WR.

8) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8316#1508280
a) You can still see the WR slow up after making this catch.

9) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8316#1508290
a) Awesome break down in coverage here. You can actually see the point where the code breaks and the DB has no idea who he's covering anymore.

10) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8316#1508297
a) No pressure. Wide open WR. QB under throws the ball so badly the DB 5 yards behind can "knock it down".

11) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8316#1508309
a) RB comes to a complete stop to catch the pass.

12) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8316#1508311
a) I've been telling you for no fewer than 6 months that coverage is broken when the WR stops running his route and starts free running. Here's yet another example of that. It _is_ the root problem with long passes. It _is_ the root problem with slant passes. It _is_ the root problem with stutter. And, yet, here it is still.

13) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8316#1508342
a) Phantom knockdown by a player no where near the play.

14) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8316#1508363
a) Wide open drag route within 5 yards of the LOS. Incomplete, bad miss.

15) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8316#1508367
a) Absolutely no pressure. QB throws it so far behind the play he might as well have been throwing to the DB all along.

16) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8316#1508369
a) Stutter breaks the play. QB throws the ball to the wrong spot. WR manages to catch it and break a tackle. There is nothing good with this play at all.

17) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8316#1508378
a) The RB has awful hands and probably should drop this. But he also shouldn't come to a complete stop to drop it.

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By setherick
6/30/2018 6:49 am
Here's some observations from the AZ - NYN first round game. The other first round game that featured QBs with "decent stats". The big plays are a result of the exploits and bad coverage logic that has been there all along and have been compounded by the new features.

1) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8317#1508420
a) Wide open WR. QB isn't under pressure. Pass is less than 25 yards through the air. Awful throw.

2) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8317#1508429
a) Hahahahahahahahahahaha... this pitch gets treated like a pass and the RB comes to a dead stop and waits to be tackled. Awesome. And the stats are not recorded at all.

3) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8317#1508433
a) The DB is a good 2 yards behind the play when he "knocks" down this pass.

4) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8317#1508434
a) This one is so bad. You just have to watch it to realize how bad it is. This is a 100 Accuracy QB...

5) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8317#1508443
a) The RB "breaks down" the defender. Here's why this is stupid. The defender shouldn't be using M2M to play trail coverage against a RB out of the backfield until the RB is actually running upfield. Now, I would never have the DE covering the RB on this play, but if the DE plays laterally until the RB crosses the LOS and then engages the RB M2M, he'll make this play.

6) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8317#1508447
a) QB tries to throw an interception here by overthrowing his intended receiver by like 5 yards on a pass that goes less than 20 yards through the air (with the overthrow). The QB has 100 accuracy and 100 FoV. He also misses the wide open slot receiver who was in his FOV.

7) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8317#1508450
a) If the QB had squared the field correctly, he'd have seen the wide open WR on the outside.

8) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8317#1508451
a) Why does this happen on almost every cutback?

9) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8317#1508460
a) Man, it's still awesome that this exploit made the cut. This may be my entire offense.

10) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8317#1508467
a) Another play where the RB breaks down the trail cover man.

11) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8317#1508477
a) Watch the TE/FB slam on the brakes when he catches this.

12) https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/watch/8317#1508484
a) Another one where the WR slams on the brakes after catching the pass. The DB that gets embarrassed has a M2M cover that is 17 points higher than the route of the WR that pulls off this move too.