New Sticky Note

NOTICE: This league is using the BLEEDING EDGE game engine. For more information, click here.

The new user interface is in preview!

Want to check it out? Click here! (If you don't like it, you can still switch back)

League Forums

Main - Beta Chat

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By raymattison21
1/13/2018 5:25 pm
Alot of these deep passing results are due to having single man coverage . I almost feel it should be this hard to stop that pass. As teams play better defensive approaches I do see a reduction in positive results.

Forcing teams to adjust defensive approaches, stop blitzing and play deep zone, would open up running lanes......ones that a closed by blitzing more than one lb .

Still, I see a visual bug in alot of these completions. The wr seems to get separation at the last second. Another bug is zone coverage . ....they just don't get there on those deep flag patterns.
But really the simplest solution is when one or more defenders has a play on the ball an interception should take place.

This is a general observation under this code is as many passes go into multiple coverage (3 or more) but just don't get picked . At least they are not caught by the wr but my zone defenses will have three or four of these are game and not even are tip.

I definitely do like hacks but it would be nice to see a non blitz defense stop this kind of play calling.

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By setherick
1/13/2018 5:31 pm
raymattison21 wrote:
This is a general observation under this code is as many passes go into multiple coverage (3 or more) but just don't get picked . At least they are not caught by the wr but my zone defenses will have three or four of these are game and not even are tip.


I'm pretty sure there is a bug with how Knockdowns are being recorded.

Also, I thought that giving CBs Pass Catching would help improve INTs, but the results in alpha have been mixed.

Oh, also, Interceptions are almost assuredly tied to a QB's accuracy right now. QBs with >75 accuracy throw very few interceptions right now unless they are constantly under pressure, and even then, they'll checkdown.
Last edited at 1/13/2018 5:33 pm

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By raymattison21
1/13/2018 5:51 pm
setherick wrote:
raymattison21 wrote:
This is a general observation under this code is as many passes go into multiple coverage (3 or more) but just don't get picked . At least they are not caught by the wr but my zone defenses will have three or four of these are game and not even are tip.


I'm pretty sure there is a bug with how Knockdowns are being recorded.

Also, I thought that giving CBs Pass Catching would help improve INTs, but the results in alpha have been mixed.



Some dbs are ball hawks, but that seem rare. Deion Sanders played wr so you know his hands were better than the average db but I feel db timing and just plain bad passes by the qb are reasons for interceptions .

An under thrown slant in the dirt would be harder to pick off but an under thrown fly you might be in trouble . While you overthrown that slant and it skips off your wrs hands right in to a safety hands for an interception is likely but if you overthrow that fly pattern it's almost a safe gamble. I don't really see any of that happening . IRL you can almost see a pick coming.

This current code seem to be lacking in pressure . I don't want sacks high, but perhaps more passes could be effected due to pressure . Or just the lack of feild of vision plays a part in seeing defenders in passing lanes .

And I not knocking the idea of using pass catching for ints but a wr would be good at it ? Idk without proper positionin nothing is getting pick off except random bad passes .

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By setherick
1/13/2018 6:08 pm
You missed the bigger point there. There are very few interceptions right now period. And trying to make a few minor adjustments hasn't seemed to equalize them in alpha.

The reason is because QBs are currently being overgenerated. Or more accurately (pun intended), Accuracy is being overgenerated. Since multiple QBs in every draft end up with 100 Accuracy, a league quickly fills up with QBs that have perfect Accuracy.

This was absolutely necessary pre-0.4.3 since QBs only read one receiver at a time and would come under pressure quicker. Now QBs read that pressure and get rid of the ball.

So a few things are happening:

1) QBs are completing A LOT more passes. Some of these are passes are dump offs to RBs. But more of them are to open WRs and TEs that QBs ignored before.

2) QBs are throwing a lot fewer interceptions. This is mostly a truism because if you complete more passes, there is less chance to throw an INT. The other reason is because having ~100 Accuracy means you're putting the ball where only the receiver can get to it. The magic number seems to be 70-75. QBs with accuracy above that complete >60% and rarely throw an INT. QBs below 70-75 complete <60% (once you get to 60 Accuracy, this drops to <50%) and start throwing more INTs.

So the obvious fix for 2 is to stop overgenerating Accuracy with QBs. But let's think about that one for a second. People already complain about not being able to draft X-number of players that have Y-attributes. What's going to happen if QBs get nerfed in the draft. Which is really what is needed to even out #1 above.

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By raymattison21
1/13/2018 8:34 pm
setherick wrote:
You missed the bigger point there. There are very few interceptions right now period. And trying to make a few minor adjustments hasn't seemed to equalize them in alpha.

The reason is because QBs are currently being overgenerated. Or more accurately (pun intended), Accuracy is being overgenerated. Since multiple QBs in every draft end up with 100 Accuracy, a league quickly fills up with QBs that have perfect Accuracy.

This was absolutely necessary pre-0.4.3 since QBs only read one receiver at a time and would come under pressure quicker. Now QBs read that pressure and get rid of the ball.

So a few things are happening:

1) QBs are completing A LOT more passes. Some of these are passes are dump offs to RBs. But more of them are to open WRs and TEs that QBs ignored before.

2) QBs are throwing a lot fewer interceptions. This is mostly a truism because if you complete more passes, there is less chance to throw an INT. The other reason is because having ~100 Accuracy means you're putting the ball where only the receiver can get to it. The magic number seems to be 70-75. QBs with accuracy above that complete >60% and rarely throw an INT. QBs below 70-75 complete <60% (once you get to 60 Accuracy, this drops to <50%) and start throwing more INTs.

So the obvious fix for 2 is to stop overgenerating Accuracy with QBs. But let's think about that one for a second. People already complain about not being able to draft X-number of players that have Y-attributes. What's going to happen if QBs get nerfed in the draft. Which is really what is needed to even out #1 above.


I see this trend 10 seasons ago as 14 qbs have 100 accuracy . Wouldn't that also mean accuracy is overpowered .

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By setherick
1/13/2018 8:55 pm
No, not as far as I see it. 100 Accuracy should be as pinpoint deadly as it is. The problem is there are too many QBs with 100 Accuracy... This may be compounded in a few seasons by the late round boosts for Vol that were added in the draft recently too.

Take this guy for instance: https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/player/13891

And before him: https://mfn1.myfootballnow.com/player/13554

Right now, high Vol QBs in the draft are likely to end up as 100 Accuracy QBs if they boom. I've been looking at this in alpha for the past few weeks. And it's not an attribute issue, it's a generation issue.

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By WarEagle
1/13/2018 9:23 pm
jdavidbakr wrote:
setherick wrote:
jdavidbakr wrote:
setherick wrote:
2) Shouldn't play overuse be ... shutting this down? No, absolutely not. That's not how it works. Play overuse penalties only apply to technical skills, which means that play overuse disproportionately improves teams that already have superior athletic (read Speed) attributes over and against the advantages that team already has over another. Basically, athletic teams get that much better against non-athletic teams that overuse plays while non-athletic teams see no benefit because athletic attributes determine 90% of players interaction except for QB accuracy and Pass Blocking.


Actually, athletic attributes are adjusted with the play overuse penalty. However, the play overuse penalty is intentionally not highly significant because I feel like it's more of a hack than a true solution, and would like to find a better way to manage this issue.


I thought that in 0.4.1, you stopped having Speed affected by overuse. I remember the initial testing of it producing weird results.

There is parts of it I really like like the changing your defensive key to Pass or Run. But it doesn't really help offenses at all.


Well, you're right - I should look at the code before I answer the question. I had forgotten that adjustment was made.


The play abuse "penalty" does nothing whatsoever to discourage anyone from running whatever BS offense or defense they want to in order to exploit the game's shortcomings.

A temporary hack is better than doing nothing to combat this in the short term.

It was much better when calling the same blitz over and over resulted in your opponent getting 70 yard TDs every play. At least then there was a consequence. If you chose to, you could avoid getting "penalized" by having a balanced playbook and playcalling.

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By setherick
1/13/2018 9:37 pm
I disagree with this completely. The hacky solution was awful. After you ran a play, any play, three times, your players stopped moving. It didn't matter if it was a blitz or not.

What is better is the Hot Read of 0.4.2, but that seems broken right now. But I haven't exactly been looking at it closely. Maybe I'll go through alpha games for the past 5-6 seasons tomorrow since I have time.

I think the best solution to overuse is to boost players non-athletic (read Speed) attributes to numbers above 100 based on the number of times you have seen a play. Something like

Base Attribute * (Number of times - 5 / 4)

So if I have 100 Ball Carry and my opponent has run the same blitz play 20 times. I temporarily have 375 Ball Carry.

The question would be if it would make a difference. I doubt that it would unfortunately.

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By WarEagle
1/13/2018 9:48 pm
Having ridiculous consequences was better than no consequences, at least to me. At least for blitz plays.

There was a temporary fix (or hack) put in place that definitely penalized you for calling a limited amount of plays on D AND you could avoid it you wanted to (I did).

It was ugly and not a good long term solution, but it worked to encourage you to have a full playbook and not limit your playcalling.

It was then removed and for all intents and purposes replaced with...nothing.

Re: Version 0.4.3 Release Candidate Discussion

By setherick
1/13/2018 9:59 pm
WarEagle wrote:
It was then removed and for all intents and purposes replaced with...nothing.


So, OK, didn't want to get into this argument, but here we go anyway. I'm not a fan of the current implementation of Overuse. But I think it highlights a few key things that are wrong with the game AND it could work, maybe, if some things were different.

1) It does override your defensive key to the appropriate key for the play. -- The short coming is that keying doesn't do that much for you if the team your play has superior athletes (read Speed).

2) It gives a boost to your non-athletic (read Speed) attributes. -- The short coming is that there currently too much of a disparity between athletic (read Speed) and non-athletic players.

Both of these could potentially be solved through player generation. Here's how:

1) Generate a lot more players that are athletic, but fewer that have good non-athletic attributes. So more 90 SP RBs with really low BC. Or more 80 SP LBs with poor tackling. Or more 100 Intelligence QBs with average Accuracy.

2) Since #1 will level the athletic portion of the playing field, overuse becomes more meaningful. Your opponent has run the same blitz 10 times. Well, now your 90 SP, 20 BC RB is now a 90 SP, 100 BC RB because he knows exactly where to move on the field. And all of your blockers are now 100 Run Blockers.

The problem is, right now, this may still not matter. Why?

Because how defensive and offensive alignments actually work, LBs blitz gaps where there is no one. And if you send 6 or 7 on 5 or 6, that 6 or 7 is going to win anyway.

BUT with improved QB accuracy and reads, it's also possible to put together an offense to specifically counter teams that blitz 2. Play sets that force your opponent to run those blitzes and pass 80% of the time. Will you give up a sack? Sure. Will you torch the other team? Sure will.